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Australian Libertarianism: Transcript of the John Ruddick Interview

By Vinay Kolhatkar

December 18, 2024

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Date of recording: December 2, 2024, The Savvy Street Show

Host: Vinay Kolhatkar. Guest: John Ruddick.

 

For those who prefer to watch the video, it is here.

Editor’s Note: The Savvy Street Show’s AI-generated transcripts are edited for removal of repetitions and pause terms, and for grammar and clarity. Explanatory references are added in parentheses. Material edits are advised to the reader as edits [in square brackets].

 

Vinay Kolhatkar (00:02)

Hello and welcome back to the Savvy Street Show. As always, we have another special guest tonight. And this evening, we have John Ruddick, who is one of the leading lights of the Libertarian Party in Australia. In 2023, he was elected to the New South Wales Parliament upper house and his maiden speech to parliament made international headlines, when it was banned from YouTube. I’m going to give you a link to that later on in the podcast so you can see for yourself why it was banned (see here).

John is an avid reader and a student of history. He is the author of the book Make the Liberal Party Great Again. That may be a lost cause now. That’s why John has joined the Libertarian Party. Welcome to The Savvy Street Show, John.

 

John Ruddick (00:56)

Very good to see you, Vinay, thanks for having me.

 

Vinay Kolhatkar (00:59)

You found Craig Kelly a new home, probably the most natural home for Mr. Kelly in Australia, would you say?

Now, we had a very significant announcement on the Ben Fordham show today. You found Craig Kelly a new home, probably the most natural home for Mr. Kelly in Australia, would you say?

 

John Ruddick (01:14)

Yes, so Craig Kelly was elected to the federal parliament in the lower house in 2010 for the Liberal Party. And he has always been very outspoken. And he’s always turned out to be right about what he’s been outspoken about. You know, Vinay, he warned seven years ago about this Voice Referendum. When they did the Uluru Statement from the Heart, Craig Kelly gave a speech in parliament and said, well, this is going to end up in a referendum, which is going to give people special rights based on their family tree.

He was brilliant on COVID, the lockdowns, the masks, vaccines. He’s very good on global warming. And I endorse his comments on that 100%. And he’s very excited about what’s happening with Javier Milei in Argentina. Look, he’s somebody who has libertarian instincts. He’s a good political fighter.

So, he’s announced on 2GB this morning with Ben Fordham. In their primetime slot, he said that he’s joining the Libertarian Party, and he will be contesting our democratic vote, in about two to three weeks, for the party members to choose who our Senate candidate will be, and he will be a candidate for that. So it will be interesting to see the outcome of that.

 

Vinay Kolhatkar (02:29)

Terrific. Well, welcome to Craig Kelly, even though he’s not here. Now, on the international front, two major headlines I want to talk about. One was three weeks ago…Donald Trump became the 47th president. Well, hasn’t become, but he has been elected. They have that unusual 11-week (lame-duck) period which we got to hang in there for.

What I wanted to raise there is that I have a peculiar definition, bear with me, of the Global Deep State. Now, the administrative state is defined as the sum total of all bureaucratic agencies. So, in the US it would include—the FBI, CIA, NSA, all the alphabet agencies, even the NIH and the health agencies. But the Global Deep State is that administrative state plus all of academia, think tanks, media, corporations, NGOs, and supranational organizations like the UN and the WHO that sing the same song. They all sing Kumbaya on a neo-Marxist narrative, which is what makes it (the Global Deep State) dangerous.

The United States is a beacon (for the world). Trump has assembled a great team around him already, which I thought was positive because this is a global war. What’s your reaction to Trump winning again?

 

John Ruddick (03:53)

Well, look, firstly, I think it was fantastic because I like Donald Trump. Putting his policies and all the politics aside, I just like him as a person. Now, I know a lot of people out there say that they voted for Trump, but they don’t like him. Well, I can’t vote for him because I’m an Australian, but I do like him. I like his candor. I like his humor. I like his swagger. I like his ego. I like his confidence. Okay, so I say, I like Trump and I do like his policies.

I don’t believe in tariffs. Mr. Trump does, but he has since the 1990s. I’ll give him points for consistency.

Not perfect. I don’t believe in tariffs. Mr. Trump does, but he has since the 1990s. I’ll give him points for consistency. But if we talk about the Trump revolution, it was an emphatic win. If we talk about it…what are the implications going to be for Australia? Now, what happened in 1979 is that we had Margaret Thatcher elected in Britain.

For half a century prior to that, from the 1930s, the late 1920s through to the 1980s, the western world had bad economic policy. It was a combination of democratic socialism and Keynesianism. And after 50 years of that crap, we had got into a slump. High inflation, low productivity, and just general lower morale.

Jimmy Carter was the president around that time, and he gave this speech…it was called the “Malaise Speech” (its official title is “Crisis of Confidence,” July 15, 1979). The western world was miserable because the economy was crap, okay? And then Thatcher comes along with her, you know, she loves Milton Friedman, she loved Hayek, and she brings in all these tough reforms—and initially, because she said, look, the first thing we have to do, is kill inflation.

So, in the process of killing inflation, Britain went into quite a sharp economic slump, a recession. But it was a good recession. Sometimes you do have to have a recession because it slayed the dragon of inflation. And then they rebounded with strength. Now, Margaret Thatcher almost got rolled in the party room at that point in time, but thank God she didn’t. Then what happened was she did reign for about 11, 12 glorious years.

And she showed the rest of the world in conjunction with the great Ronald Reagan, they showed the rest of the world how great free market reforms can be: deregulation, privatization, tax cutting, okay, all these good things…let the entrepreneurs, let the small businesses flourish. And it works every time because we have faith in humanity. We believe if you leave people alone, they’ll generally, not always, but generally do good productive things.

And so, what happened was we then had four years after Thatcher, we had a trade union boss elected the prime minister in this country, Mr. Bob Hawke. Both sides of politics agree today that the Bob Hawke government was a successful government. Very good economic reforms. Where did he get those (ideas for) economic reforms from? He’d been a democratic socialist, he loved Gough Whitlam all his life.

And when Hawke ran for prime minister, he just talked in very vague terms. He said: We are going to unite the country. We’re going to bring the country together. People were sick of Malcolm Fraser. They wanted to change the government. Bob Hawke was likable. But he didn’t campaign on, vote for me and I will bring in Margaret-Thatcher-style economic reforms. But he won and he looks around and he thinks, gee, these Thatcher reforms are working pretty well. We’ll just copy that.

Bob Hawke loved Margaret Thatcher more than he loved the Labor Party.

And that’s largely what he did. The Labor Party hates it when we say this because they also love Bob Hawke. Bob Hawke loved Margaret Thatcher more than he loved the Labor Party. Wasn’t quite as pure as Thatcher, but it was still very, very good. And this is why Australia has had several good decades, well, up until the subprime crisis. And we’ve had bad government ever since Kevin Rudd…one or two percent of growth since then.

Now, it wasn’t just Australia and America that followed the Thatcher lead. Africa followed the Thatcher lead. I remember when I was a teenager, I would see these absolutely heartbreaking scenes of Africa, Ethiopia, and other places where as far as the camera could scan, people literally starving to death. Why was that? Socialism.

it wasn’t just Australia and America that followed the Thatcher lead. Africa followed the Thatcher lead.

Well, we haven’t seen that in Africa for a good 30 to 40 years. That’s good news. And what’s caused that?

The African countries were previously socialist and leaning towards Moscow in the Cold War. And they said, this Margaret Thatcher stuff works well. Let’s let in foreign corporations to build a plant here. Let’s bring in telecommunications. Let’s have private investment come in. Let’s have a stock market. Let’s have floating currencies. Let’s deregulate all the good stuff. And then it wasn’t just Africa.

India used to be very socialist country. China followed the Thatcher Revolution. Latin America followed the Thatcher Revolution. Most of the world followed the Thatcher Revolution. Lifted up human peace and prosperity and general progress. But it took a little while. Now, what I believe is going to happen here with Mr. Trump is this: The Trump Revolution like the Thatcher Revolution is going to trickle down to the rest of the world—the anti-Woke revolution, the Department of Government Efficiency revolution. Now, it will not happen overnight, but I do believe we’re at the highwater mark of woke BS. And I think that Trump’s got a magnificent team around him and they’re going do good things on such a wide array of fronts. It’s all very exciting and I believe it’s going to be a similar sort of mood. It will come down to Australia and that can only be a very good thing.

 

Vinay Kolhatkar (09:56)

I could not agree with you more. I absolutely hope that this is a lighthouse. This is the beacon. Even though, the tariffs are a negative thing from a libertarian standpoint, the overall positivity, especially about the open candor in the fight against the deep state…I hope it translates into Europe and Australia, at least, as well to Asia.

Speaking of global trends, Australia made global headlines a few days ago, all for the wrong reasons. If I may use the pronoun “she,” Albo-Nanny (she) says, if you’re below 16, you can’t access social media at all. Now, the difference is that this is a blanket ban as against what was done in France, Belgium, Germany, and Italy.

In those countries…in France and Italy, under 15s can’t access social media until they get parental consent, which is completely different, right? So, the parents, they rule…you and Kelly (a reference to John’s wife) decide when your children can access social media, not Albo-Nanny. Same thing in Germany and Belgium (parental consent needed, different age to France and Italy). And we had a most unfortunate thing…I looked at who opposed the bill…13 members (only, of 150), a lot of them Greens and Teals…not our natural allies, but they opposed it besides Matt Canavan and two liberals. What’s your reaction to this whole global headline fiasco?

 

John Ruddick (11:35)

Well, there have been one or two polls saying that roughly 70 % of Australians support the under-16 social media ban. Now that’s simply because most people are only processing this after hearing about it for five seconds on the news. And that is the government’s going to prevent kids under 16 accessing social media. And a lot of parents think that’s cool. That’s a good idea.

It’s like the Voice (referendum), the Voice was very popular at the beginning. Now, when people hear more about the details, that falls off very quickly, that support. So hopefully the viewers tonight can understand what we’re trying to say. The Libertarians very proudly took the lead in trying to pressure the Senate and particularly the Liberal Party to change their mind and support free speech. And this is a free speech issue.

The under-16 social media ban. It is a social media ID system.

This is the concern, the paramount concern that we have in the Libertarian Party about this so-called under-16 social media ban. It is a social media ID system. That’s what they are trying to do because if they ban it for under 16s, which they have, so what if you’re 17 or what if you’re 77, how do you prove you’re not under the age of 16? Well, you’re going to cough up your ID.

Now, a big part of social media is anonymous accounts or people who don’t use their real name and there’s lots of legitimate reasons why people may not want to use their real name. It’s probably 70 % of accounts. They might have a sensitive job. They might work for the government. They might want to be critical of the government. They might just be…a shy person. There might be some family matter going on where they…maybe their parents don’t like them liking Donald Trump or whatever. There are a whole lot of reasons why people want to be anonymous and that’s fine. Well, now, those people are going to [have to] cough up their ID. What Albanese has actually done here is he has built an apparatus now in the bureaucracy that can cut off a category of people from social media. And that category in this case is under 16s, okay. But what if there’s another so-called pandemic and we go through the whole COVID BS again, the whole hysteria again, and then we have another all-but-forced compulsory vaccination program and there are some people out there that want to say I don’t think you should take it because it’s rushed. Just to repeat what we had before, social media tried to cut off people who were saying that which now in retrospect was the right thing to say.

But Albanese has now got a mechanism in place. He says, okay, well, cut off social media from people under the age of 16. And then if there’s another pandemic, they’ll say, cut people off from the internet who don’t go along with the vaccine BS or the global warming BS or whatever the latest woke is. So, there’s now a mechanism to…restrict the internet or the social media, which is powerful, according to who the government approves and doesn’t approve. So, it’s a big recipe for disaster. And the government and the big state, the deep state, whatever we want to call them, they are freaked out by the endless rise in the power of social media.

We saw it in the United States. If Elon Musk hadn’t bought Twitter, I suspect we’d be talking about Kamala Harris right now. Which would be a depressing place to be. But because Elon Musk bought Twitter, that played a significant role in the outcome of that election. That’s a good thing. All Elon Musk did was make Twitter a free-speech platform. Now, of course, when it’s free speech, what happens?

Spontaneously, people with good, right-wing conservative-libertarian outlooks are basically going to dominate because we’ve got better ideas than the thugs on the Left who want to use state violence to shut down dissenting views. That’s what’s going on there, Vinay.

I was very proud of the Libertarian Party and the party put out a social media post and campaign saying that if you’re a Liberal Party member and you are disgusted with the Liberal Party for betraying free speech, join the Libertarian Party, you’ll get free membership and that’s been going gangbusters. We’re very happy with it.

 

Vinay Kolhatkar (16:12)

Great. Now, on the issue of vaccines and adverse effects and also the excess deaths. There was an inquiry around March to May (2024), a Senate inquiry which was limited in scope…it was only about the excess deaths. And Senator Babet said about 80 submissions, more than 50%, were never put into the public sphere.

 

John Ruddick (16:15)

Yes.

 

Vinay Kolhatkar (16:38)

So, do we really have good prospects…because RFK Jr. is now there or will be there heading up the cabinet position of Health and Human Services? I am concerned about RFK’s (generic) anti-vaccine stance, but at least on mRNA, I think he had the right stance. Is there hope for having a Royal Commission or a thorough investigation, not just of excess deaths, but of aspiration before vaccination, mask mandates, mandates into compulsory vaccination. There are several issues that we wanted investigated.

 

John Ruddick (17:19)

Well, I think that there’s definitely hope because I think out of all the people that were heroic under fire during the COVID BS all around the world, the person who gets the most praise and gets the gold-medal performance for COVID resistance is Robert F. Kennedy, Jr. And he was brilliant. He was putting so much at risk because he’s from the royal family of the Democrats in America.

He’s a huge name, doesn’t have to go and risk his reputation like this. But he took them on and now Trump is going to make him the secretary of the Department of Health and something. HHS. But anyway, he was talking last night about arresting Bill Gates and putting him on trial and Dr. Fauci will be sweating. These are fundamentally bad people.

Assuming RFK gets confirmed, I think it will be hard to reject a Kennedy, but you never know. But look, even if they don’t confirm it, then Trump will put somebody else in. RFK will [still] be his right-hand man. Look, I think that RFK knows this industry and all the fraud that goes on intimately. And I think that he will absolutely bring COVID justice, which is something we campaigned on at the last New South Wales election.

Now, my own personal experience with the vaccine situation was I worked for Ross Cameron when he was a Liberal backbencher, the member for Parramatta in the mid-1980s when John Howard first got elected. And I was just a young Liberal, I was enthusiastic and one of the first groups of people to knock on the door was Pfizer because their manufacturing plant, their corporate HQ, happened to be in Ross’s electorate. And they were very, very friendly people. And if we had a fundraiser on, they’d take out a whole table and they’d pay top dollar.

And after two years, they offered me a [sales] job, which I accepted. I was there for five months before I was rightly dismissed for chronic underperformance. But in those five months that I was there, they told me two very important things. They said, John, for every 40 vaccine concepts that we have, one gets to market.

And they said for every concept vaccine that actually does get to market, it’s typically 10 years, it can be 15 years. And I said, well, why is that? And they said on both fronts, it’s because of unintended side effects.

Okay, and they said, we just can’t rush vaccines because it might appear for a year or two to do a very good job at what it’s meant to do. But then we find out five years later, it gives you kidney disease. These things can happen. And it has happened in many, and even with all these tests and trials that they do, some products do get through to the market and do cause damage. And then the big pharmaceutical companies have to pay a lot of compensation.

I thought, okay, well, that’ll make sense. Thanks. Thanks for telling me that. Now fast forward 20 years. And this bad flu comes along called COVID. And I thought immediately this seems to be a hysteria because when we got the data out of Italy, it looked like this was a bad flu that was killing people over the age of 80 who were very sick already. (Not like) the Spanish flu, which was a very serious pandemic, which killed 50 million people when the population was a lot smaller, (and it) was affecting people in their prime, people under the age of 30. I thought, well, this COVID’s not bad. Okay, let’s look after grandma.

Families can do that. Everyone should soldier on during COVID. That was my view very early on, March 2020, when we saw the data out of Italy. And then, and so I’m sitting in my bed because we were all locked in and I’m just tearing my hair out every day. I think, my God, I can’t believe how crazy the world’s going over a bad flu. This is a hysteria, a left-wing political hysteria. That’s what the whole thing was.

And then I hear that [they’re] going to come out with the vaccine. Gee, well, I remember what Pfizer told me. They told me how you got to be careful with these things. And I just said, well, I’m not taking the vaccine. I just said straightaway, no way I’m taking it. I said to my kids, we’re not taking it. And I said, look, if they happen to lock us in our home for the next five years, because we won’t take the vaccine, well, I’ll just put up with that. Because I believe this whole thing could backfire.

It was “Warp Speed” vaccines, which is a betrayal of what makes vaccines good.

It was “Warp Speed” vaccines, which is a betrayal of what makes vaccines good. You don’t do them [at] warp speed. And then the Vax rollout starts in Australia. And within two weeks, we see…all over social media, gee, I took my COVID Vax, I still got COVID today. You just see it nonstop. Some people on my Twitter feed believe that this was an attempt at killing off people. I don’t believe it. I believe the pharmaceutical industry is motivated by extreme greed. And they wanted their product to work, but they just rushed it. And the government rushed it. And Donald Trump’s not innocent on this. I mean, he was sort of forced into it.

I’m a history student, so I don’t have any epidemiological qualifications, but my hunch is that the excess deaths are caused by the vaccine. My hunch is people are getting sick because of the vaccine. I meet them on a very frequent basis…just in casual conversations people in Parliament House telling me that their relatives got sick from the vaccine, they whisper it to me. Okay, [I] won’t be naming names, but I can promise you that more than a few people, they’ve said, gee, keep going with the vaccines, John. My brother got myocarditis, that’s the most common thing that we hear. Young men, fit young healthy men in their 20s and 30s.

So, I believe, this is one of the most exciting, probably from my point of view, it’s the most exciting pick out of Trump’s many very good picks. RFK is the best.

 

Vinay Kolhatkar (23:54)

Thank you. Coming back to Australia, are the Teals small “l” liberal as they claim they are? Or Green Lite? Or centrist Labor?

 

John Ruddick (24:04)

Well, they’re worse than Labor. The original Teal was Zali Steagall, she ran in 2019 for the federal seat of Warringah against Tony Abbott, and she won. Now, when she was launched, she gave an interview to Peter FitzSimons in the Sydney Morning Herald [where] she says, “I’m from a liberal-voting family, I’m basically a liberal but I believe in climate change. But besides that, besides climate change, I’m basically a liberal.

And then she then gets half a dozen similar people (to herself) elected at the last (federal) election (2022). So that’s a reasonably powerful force down there in Canberra. But we’ve now got six years of a voting record (for Steagall). And they (the Teals) are basically what I call Gucci Greens. They are from wealthy electorates. They have an upper-class voice. They dress well, but they are the Greens.

Except for Allegra Spender, they [the Teals] voted in favor of the misinformation bill.

Okay, and this is look at their voting record. Except for Allegra Spender, they voted in favor of the misinformation bill. And they are just basically left wing-nutters on everything. I’ve never heard one of them say anything that requires a bit of intellectual depth.

So, they have hoodwinked those Liberal electorates. I’m hoping that the Libertarian Party can very much take on the Teals at the coming federal election because the Liberals are too weak to, but we will call them out because we’re going to be very skeptical about the global warming hocus-pocus.

 

Vinay Kolhatkar (25:33)

That’s great. I hope you do so. One thing that the Libertarian Party and people like Craig Kelly have been doing and some of the One Nation people have been doing as well is that they don’t constrain themselves to the so-called Overton Window where there’s this allowable speech. They’re ready to say this: “Climate alarmism is a scam. And that, there were many issues with COVID, and it wasn’t all that great as it turned out to be in terms of the remedies suggested. Many alternate remedies were neglected.”

Do you see more opportunities to shift and open the Overton window yourself? Like you start speaking about things that others don’t speak about or are not supposed to speak about if they’re a Liberal member, for instance.

 

John Ruddick (26:19)

Well, the Overton Window is the cause of all of our troubles in the world. Cowardly people won’t step outside it. Now, it’s somewhat understandable because if you step outside that Overton Window, you’re jeopardizing employment prospects. You might be jeopardizing your current job. You’ll be jeopardizing friendships. So, it does require courage. But we didn’t build Western civilization by staying inside the Overton Window.

When you can go outside the Overton window and you sort of shock people, but enough people that grow with you can actually turn you into a legend. Donald Trump saw this in 2015 when he burst onto the scene and said, “We’re going to build a wall across the southern border to stop the illegal migrants.” Now, the Republican party prior to this had absolutely and unanimously said…even on the weekend only after Obama had won twice and they really wanted to win in 2016, the Republican establishment said, “We’ve got to be super-duper nice, friendly, and cuddly towards illegal migrants.” That was the big pitch. They said, “We’ve got to win over this Latino vote, and we’ve got to stop talking about how bad illegal migrants are. And then Trump comes along and says, well, we’re going to build a wall. And so…that was outside of the Overton window, but it made common sense, and it was politically popular. Yes, we say at the Libertarian Party, the Overton window is for wimps.

 

Vinay Kolhatkar (27:56)

Okay, one last question. I want your prediction on the outcome, not necessarily whether it’s on (Saturday) March 1 or March 15th or in May, but the outcome of the Australian federal election and who will end up as a prime minister.

I’m going to throw one out there, a real wild prediction, which is that there is a secret coalition which kind of wins, which is the coalition that is not declared as a coalition between Labor and Liberals. We saw (that in operation) last week…37 bills in one day! They’re going to win even though for both of them their primary vote is going down. It won’t be official, but they can do things behind closed doors and ignore everyone else. What’s your prediction?

 

John Ruddick (28:43)

Well, I think the election will be in May. I think the result will be…a hung parliament because I think that there’ll still be Teals there. There might be a few lower-house Greens, and Bob Katter and a few other independents around the place—Wilkie, Sharkey and then there’s going to be the Dai Le (style) conservative independents taking over the Labor Party heartland, which could be very interesting. I mean, those Labor electorates out in the Western suburbs like McMahon, where Chris Bowen is the member…they had the highest vote in the country against gay marriage. They had a very high vote against the Voice (referendum). They were pro-retaining-the-British-monarchy 25 years ago. But they’re voting for the stupid Labor Party.

I think the election will be in May. I think the result will be…a hung parliament because I think that there’ll still be Teals there.

Now, they probably can’t bring themselves to vote Liberal. It’s an area where it’s like the North Shore can’t bring themselves to vote Labor. But I suspect that Dai Le might be the reverse Zali Steagall and there might be a few other right-wing independents that get elected, which would be a very good thing to see. But all that will do is add to the chances of there being a hung parliament.

Now, who would win out of the hung parliament? I suspect Anthony Albanese will win and that’s because it’s a very rare thing in Australian federal politics for there to be a one-term government. It last happened in 1931 and that happened because of the depths of the depression. So, you need a big crisis. Now, Albanese’s polling for him must be worrying but history tells us it is not an election-defeating polling. Last time I saw…Dutton’s about 51, two-party preferred, Albo’s 49. When there’s a change of government over the last sort of 40, 50, 60 years, Vinay, and the government loses, the incumbent government loses, if it fails to get reelected, the polling six months out is catastrophic for the government. They are behind by like 12 points, sometimes 20 points.

Okay, so six months before Kevin Rudd lost, Tony Abbott was beating Julia Gillard 60-40. When John Howard beat Paul Keating, it was almost 60-40. Now, it wasn’t so bad with Scott Morrison, but was still, Albo was way in front with several months to go. Then it always narrows, it always narrows. If I’m wrong and if Peter Dutton and the (Liberal–National) Coalition can win, that will be very, very impressive politically, politically.

I think a Dutton government would be better than a Morrison government, better than the Turnbull government, but it’ll be very disappointing. And this is why we need, in the Senate and the state upper houses, (where) we have proportional representation, which means that there’s always going to be a powerful crossbench. Lots of little parties are going to get elected. The Labor Party has cultivated a little party to their left called the Greens. They suck up that 10 to 12 percent; it’s a very organized block of votes. Now, on the right-hand side of politics, we’ve got all those rats and mice. We’ve got Libertarians, we’ve got One Nation, we’ve got United Australia party, we’ve got Christian parties, we’ve got Shooters parties, we’ve got other little groups, anti-vax parties.

What the Coalition’s just got to accept is, there’s going to be a minor party on the right in our (federal) Senate and (state) upper houses. Which is the best one for us? Well, we believe it’s obviously the Libertarian Party because we believe that we’re an intellectual party. We’re an ideological party and we are growing politically and so we are very hopeful that we can get a few senators elected and we only need a few elected and then we’ll just keep growing from there.

 

Vinay Kolhatkar (unrecorded, but words to the effect)

Thank you, John, for coming here and for the comprehensive answers.

To the viewers out there, keep tuning in to this show to become savvy.

 

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